Classic motoring events, vehicle restorations, news, museum visits and other bits and pieces from Perth, Western Australia
Saturday, February 1, 2014
Tatra's Streamliners - Yesterday's car of tomorrow
During the early years of motoring there was a basic appreciation of streamlining with regards to racing cars, but few companies thought of applying these lessons to a production car. Consequently, when the former aircraft manufacturer Ernst Rumpler introduced the streamlined Tropfenwagen (tear-drop car) at the Berlin Auto Show in 1921, it caused a sensation. With a mid-mounted engine and nautical streamlining, it was technologically advanced for its time and extremely aerodynamically efficient. Sales however, were low and only 100 cars were built. The car was simply too radical for its time. https://heinkelscooter.blogspot.com/2021/11/1921-rumpler-tropfenwagen-streamline.html
Aircraft and automobile pioneer, Ernst Rumpler's (left) stunning and advanced design didn't sell well but they found successful employment as taxis during the 1920s and 30s. They also made an appearance in Fritz Lang's dystopian movie "Metropolis."
One of the two surviving examples is on display at the Munich Technikmuseum. Tests of the Tropfenwagen in the 1970s revealed that it was astonishingly well streamlined with a drag co-efficient of only 0.28. More photos can be found here: https://heinkelscooter.blogspot.com/2020/05/munich-technical-museum-germany.html
Contemporary film of a Tropfenwagen on the road
The influence of Zeppelin
In Germany, an aeronautical engineer named Paul Jaray was hard at work trying to put the aerodynamic lessons he'd learnt at Zeppelin to new use. Jaray was born in Vienna in 1889 and had studied aeronautics at Prague. He joined the Zeppelin Airship Company and by the end of the war had risen through the ranks to become its chief designer.
Jaray's post-war passenger airships LZ120 Bodensee and LZ121 Nordstern had benefited from extensive wind tunnel testing and pointed the way towards the great airships like Graf Zeppelin and Hindenburg that would cruise the skies in the 1930s.
With Germany banned from building airships by the Treaty of Versailles, Jaray turned his skills toward automobiles. He'd been experimenting with car designs for some time but the release of the Tropfenwagen in 1921 prompted him into action and he lodged a series of patents on streamlined automobile design concepts. He shopped the concepts around to a number of auto manufacturers with limited success.
The influence of Jaray's work at Zeppelin was readily apparent in his early design sketches. Cars based on these early 1920s patents proved to be so impractical that experimentation in streamlining was abandoned for almost ten years. For details of one of Jaray's more successful experiments in the early 1930s, see here: https://heinkelscooter.blogspot.com/2021/04/paul-jarays-mb200-streamliner.html
Enter Tatra
Tatra is the third oldest surviving vehicle manufacturer in the world after Benz and Peugeot. The company was founded by Ignatz Schustala in the town of Nesseldorf in 1850 as the Schustala Wagon Company. Schustala gained a reputation as a luxury carriage marker and would in time secure contracts with the Imperial Hapsburg family. In 1890 the company was renamed the Nesselsdorfer Wagon Company and expanded into rolling stock and railway carriages. Nesseldorfer would build and fit out the luxury carriages for the Orient Express.
Like many other carriage makers, they made the jump to automobiles around the turn of the century. Their first car, the Nesselsdorfer President, was built in 1897 and was the first car manufactured in Central Europe. The following year Nesselsdorfer achieved another first when they produced the worlds first lorry.
The President of 1897 was based on the Benz Victoria, with improvements. The original car is preserved in the Prague Technical Museum. https://tatrat600.blogspot.com/2020/09/prague-technical-museum.html
Edmund Rumpler of Tropfenwagen fame had been Nesselsdorfer's chief engineer before he struck out on his own. He was succeeded by Hans Ledwinka, a self-taught engineering genius who had risen through the ranks from humble mechanic's apprentice. Like Jaray, Ledwinka was born in Klosterneuburg, outside Vienna in the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1879. Although he lived in Czech-speaking Bohemia, he came from a German speaking family and never learned to speak Czech. Under Ledwinka's inspired leadership Tatra would become one of the most innovative automobile company's in the history.
During the First World War, Nesselsdorfer shut down their automobile division in order to build rolling stock for the Austro-Hungarian army. With his talents underutilized, Ledwinka resigned from the company and moved to Steyr-Puch. Steyr-Puch were primarily an arms manufacturer but also manufactured trucks for the war effort. Ledwinka would go on to design a range of civilian cars for Steyr in the post-war period which bore a surprising resemblance the the prewar Nesselsdorfers.
While at Steyr-Puch, Ledwinka began to work on a radical new car design. Ledwinka had become convinced that post-war Europe would need a cheap and robust car that could handle the regions poor roads. This project bought him into conflict with Steyr-Puch's management, who could see no money in a 'people's car' and in 1921 he resigned, taking his designs with him.
Following the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, Nesselsdorfer found itself within the new nation of Czechoslovakia. In the aftermath of the war, the new country underwent a process of de-Germanification. The town's Germanic name, Nesseldorf, was changed to the Czech Koprivince, and the company renamed itself Tatra, after the nearby mountain range. Tatra reached out to Ledwinka and offered him technical directorship of the company. This allowed him free reign to develop his budget car project and in 1924, the ground breaking Tatra 11 was unveiled, showcasing a raft of Ledwinka's advanced design features, including the lightweight tube chassis, independent suspension, and independently driven half axles. The car was powered by a 1200cc twin-cylinder boxer engine. Fan-assisted air-cooling removed the need for a heavy radiator, giving the Tatra its distinctive snow-plow shaped bonnet. The T11 went on to spawn a range of Tatra air-cooled cars during the 1920s and early 30s.
The Tatra 11 introduced Ledwinka's air cooled engine and tube chassis to the world.
Ledwinka's tube chassis, independent suspension and independently driven half axles design were adapted for Tatra's truck range and Tatra was soon producing two, four, six and eight wheel drive heavy trucks.
The Tatra T26 light truck was marketed as an all terrain vehicle. In the early 30s a specially imported Tatra T26 circumnavigated Australia. The story and photos are here https://heinkelscooter.blogspot.com/2015/07/across-australia-by-tatra.html
This photo of a Tatra T25 heavy lorry shows the effectiveness of Ledwinka's independently sprung and driven half axles. No matter how uneven the terrain all wheels maintain contact with the ground.
Project 570
In 1932 Tatra engaged Paul Jaray as a design consultant on their new Tatra 57 project. Jaray presented a radically streamlined design for a mid-sized sedan. A single prototype was built but Tatra felt it was too unorthodox and handed the project over to Ledwinka's son Erich and designer Erich Uberlacher.
Jaray's original Tatra styling was conventional and front-engined.
Ledwinka Jnr and Ubelacher pared the design back to a more conventional, budget car design that was more in keeping with the austerity of the times. In doing so however, all the streamlined and novel elements of Jaray's original design were lost. They built two prototypes, one with a conventional front-mounted engine and the other with an experimental, rear-mounted engine.
The Tatra board decided to stick with the traditional version and this design soon became the Tatra 57, which was released in 1932 to great acclaim and enormous market success. The Tatra T57 would remain in production until 1949.
The Tatra 57 was an outstandingly successful little car and possibly the best selling Tatra of all time.
Ledwinka Snr, however, was not impressed and warned Uberlacker that if he was not able to do anything better than tinker with Ledwinka's basic concepts, he could find himself another job. Suitably chastened, Uberlacker focused his attention on the rear-engined prototype. At that time, thanks largely to the promotional activity of the German engineer and auto-critic Josef Ganz, rear mounted engines were seen as the cutting edge of automobile design. Designated Project V570, Ledwinka Snr, Jnr and Uberlacher worked together to develop the idea of a modern, rear-engined streamlined car using Paul Jaray's streamlined design principles.
The Tatra V570 bears a passing resemblance to Ferdinand Porsche's' early Volkswagen V3 prototypes, but this should not be a surprise given both Porsche and Ledwinka were working on rear engine car concepts in parallel and were aware of each other's work. Porsche shared Ledwinka's vision of a modern 'people's car' and his son, Ferry, would later comment that his father admitted he designed the Volkswagen with at least one eye on Ledwinka's work.http://www.tatramuseum.cz/index.php?r=5&idj=2
The rear mounted engine was a key component of the new design as it made the best use of Jaray's teardrop shape bodywork, and placing the weight of the engine directly over the driving wheels provided better traction, but it also created problems with both cooling and handling. Many companies had experimented with the rear engine concept, but all found the effort required to overcome the technical challenges made the proposition uneconomical. In fact it was only Hitler's unconditional financial backing that allowed Porsche to iron out problems with the Volkswagen's rear-engined design. Even then the project took four years longer than anticipated. For the next 18 months Ledwinka and his team worked valiantly to iron out the engineering problems of the rear engine. As a result Ledwinka and Tatra would lodge a dozen patents just covering the engine's forced air cooling system. Despite all their efforts, it was clear to Tatra management that the V570 was never going to be a viable economic proposition and cancelled the project.
Tatra T77
Despite this, Tatra's management made a brave decision to continue with the rear-engine project, but as a luxury car. Increasing the wheelbase and size of the vehicle allowed the team to address many of the issues that had plagued the smaller, budget car as it provided a more stable platform for the rear engine and allowed the maximum streamlining to be achieved. The vehicle's drag co-efficient of 0.212 was outstandingly efficient and has rarely been achieved in modern production vehicles. Pitching the car at the affluent, luxury car market would attract a higher price tag to help recoup the project costs.
The design sketch of the T77 includes some of Paul Jaray's typical features, such as the sharply rounded windscreen and boat-tailed cabin. However, moving the engine to the rear allowed the passenger cabin to move forward between the axles. This in turn lowered the car's profile and improved handling and stability.
The new car featured a newly designed 3.4 litre, air-cooled v8 engine delivering 75 horsepower, mounted far in the rear. The engine was cooled by two fans which blasted air across the cylinders. Later, air scoops would be added to the upper rear decklid to ensure sufficient air was available for the fans. Performance in trials was excellent and the car could maintain speeds of up to 150 kilometres per hour.
Rear mounting of the engine transformed the interior space of the car by allowing the passenger cabin to be moved further forward. The lack of a drive-shaft beneath the car could have been utilized to deliver a flat floor-pan, but Tatra chose to retain their typical central tube chassis to ensure structural stability. The complex gear shift linkages were inset into the tube chassis. Nevertheless, the passenger cabin was extremely roomy, with comfortable seating for six across the two bench seats. Passenger and driver visibility was excellent to the front and sides thanks to extensive wrap around windows, but rear visibility however was poor as the rear decklid was pierced only by metal louvers. A central driving position was trialed in a number of the early prototypes, before being moved to the right hand side (Czech's were still driving on the left hand side of the road at that time). The boot (trunk) was situated under the front bonnet with two spare tyres, to increase the weight over the front wheels. Two large headlights were mounted in the bonnet
The Tatra 77 prototype is easily recognizable by its split front windscreen. Later examples had a wrap around windscreen with two small side windows. Numerous changes were made to each subsequent vehicle as the design evolved.
This rear quarter photo of the first prototype is notable for the absence of any air-scoops on the rear decklid, which is otherwise completely streamlined. Two small rectangular windows above the louvers provide a modicum of rear vision. Air-scoops would be progressively added to later cars, trialed in many positions before becoming standardized on the upper sides. The car is also absent the distinctive Tatra tail-fin.
The Tatra T77 had been developed and built in secret so when the car was finally unveiled at the Prague Auto Show on 3 May 1934, it created a sensation. Exhibitions followed at the Paris and Berlin auto shows and journalists were lavish in their praise of the extraordinary car, both for its futuristic design as well as its outstanding performance. All commented on the car's speed and smooth handling and the orders started to flow.
Hans Ledwinka explains the details of the Tatra 77 engine to Adolf Hitler at the 1934 Berlin Auto Show. Hitler was keenly interested new technologies and although he didn't drive himself, he had a particular fascination with automobiles. Hitler found the ultra-modern Tatra particularly appealing. It is claimed that Hitler later told Ley and Ferdinand Porsche that the Tatra "is the car for my autobahns."
The new improved second prototype of the Tatra 77 featuring the wrap around windscreen and changes to the bonnet and relocation of the driving position to the right.
The space-age T77 featured in the futuristic 1935 film, "The Tunnel." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tunnel_%281935_film%29
The T77 however was very much an experimental car at this point in time and each T77 was adjusted with improvements and enhancements. The addition of air-scoops in various positions around the engine bay was trialed to improve engine cooling. One very distinctive feature that was added during this period was the addition of the Tatra tail-fin. Although it is often claimed that the tail-fin was added to limit rear-end yawing (side to side sway), this is somewhat apocryphal. Modern claims of driving instability and the risk of the car flipping off the road in a turn are not borne out by contemporary driving reports. That said, the tail-fin must have some small affect on handling at speed. Because the design team were continuing to make adjustments to almost every element of the car at this time, no two T77s or the later T77a were exactly the same. Only 249 production vehicles and 4 prototypes were built. All were individually coach-built with steel skin over a wooden frame.
Tatra T87
In 1936 Tatra released the new T87 model, which brought together the lessons from the experimental T77 and T77A. The T87 saw the car's headlights moved from the bonnet to the wheel arches. An additional third headlight was mounted in the bonnet. The car also received an improved 2.9 litre V8 engine.Although smaller than the T77's 3.5 litre engine, the new engine delivered 85 horsepower. Lightweight magnesium alloy was used in the engine to reduce its overall weight. As the car could easily cruise at over 160kph it was popular with the rich and famous, especially in Germany where it was purchased by customers such as Ernst Heinkel and Erwin Rommel. Unlike the wood-framed T77, the T87 had a fully self-supporting steel body and integral chassis.
Servicing a pre-war T77. For ease of maintenance the whole engine and drive train could easily be rolled out of the back of the car. In the 1960s T87 owners were able to replace their old pre-war engines with the modern 2.5 litre T603 engine.
The Tatra range in 1936 - the T22 heavy truck, the T87 limousine, and the T75 budget sedan.
Tatra 97
In 1936 Tatra introduced a reduce specification streamliner with the T97. The T97 was basically a shrunk down T87 powered by a 1761cc rear-mounted flat four boxer engine. Certain other features were simplified, such as reverting a dual headlights and a single piece windscreen. Although the engine was only 40 horsepower, the T97 was a very sleek machine and could easily cruise at 130kph. Although it is often claimed that the T97 was Tatra's budget streamliner and as a consequence attracted comparison with the German Volkswagen, this is not true. The T97 remained exclusively a luxury vehicle affordable only to the well-to-do. Tatra's budget car offering was the T57, introduced in 1932 and still a popular seller at the time. Only 508 examples of the T97 were built before production was bought to a halt when Germany invaded and annexed Czechoslovakia in 1938.
The trio of pre-war Tatra streamliners - the T77, T87 and T97
The Nazi's were keen to get their hands on Czechoslovakia's advanced technical and military industries and Tatra were nationalized and bought under the German Schell Plan, which limited and standardized the automotive industry. Tatra were instructed to focus on truck production, but, uncharacteristically, Tatra was permitted to continue automobile production. The T97 was withdrawn from the market but T57 production continued. Tatra's rugged and advanced trucks saw extensive service on all fronts, as did a military version of the T75 sedan. Tatra also built armoured vehicles, half-tracks and tank engines.
A post-war Tatra OT-810 HAKO half-track at the Imperial War Museum, Duxford. Companies like Tatra found themselves building copies of standard German military vehicles, such as this copy of a Hanomag SdKfz.251. Tatra continued manufacturing them into the early 1950s.
Most interestingly, T87s could be purchased by special order. Throughout the war, the Tatra factory continued developing and improving the T87 year on year. There are distinct differences in T87s built during every year of the war until 1945. A number of Tatra T87s were used by a military police regiment in Italy.
German officers on an inspection tour of the Tatra truckworks at Koprivince in 1940 find themselves distracted by a Tatra T87. Hans Ledwinka stands near the drivers window explaining the cars' finer details.
Post-War
After the end of the Second World War a nationalist government was re-established in Czechoslovakia. Ethnic Germans were expelled from the country and collaborators, like Hans Ledwinka, were arrested and imprisoned. As in other war shattered countries, critical industries such as Tatra and Skoda were nationalized. Production of trucks recommenced, along with T57s. A few T87s began trickling off the line, mainly constructed with pre-war parts.
Hans Ledwinka served five years with hard labour. When he was released in 1951 Tatra were keen to regain his services, offering him the managing directorship, but he refused and retired to Austria and then Munich, Germany, where he lived quietly until his death in 1967.
A pre-war and post-war T87 side by side. The post-war model on the right has bigger and more bulbous bonnet and wheel arches. Internally, the fittings were a little less extravagant. Most surviving T87s are in fact post-war cars even though they may contain pre-war parts.
Tatraplan
With Ledwinka out of the picture, a new design team took over at Tatra. In 1946 they initiated a project to design a new car to replace the T57 and T87, however, with the loss of skills and machinery during war it quickly became apparent that a whole new car design would take four or five years to come to fruition. Tatra couldn't afford to wait that long and decided to rehash the prewar T97. Josef Chalupa, Vladimír Popelář, and František Kardaus simplified almost all elements of Hans Ledwinka's T97 to make it easier and cheaper to manufacture. The new car was powered by a flat four boxer engine of 1921cc capacity. Many of the body panels were hand beaten as industrial presses were not available.
One of the early T107 prototypes. The bonnet styling and false radiator grill are quite different to the production version.
Ironically, road testing of the original prototype exposed handling and performance issues with the car. A second prototype was constructed which aimed to address these flaws, but it too failed to meet expectations. At a loss and facing time pressure from authorities, the design team visited Ledwinka in prison. The design plans and specifications were left with the old engineer for a couple of days before being returned with comments and mark ups. The subsequent test car performed well and was rushed into production.
This early German advertisement for the Tatraplan still describes the car as the T107. Other errors include describing the engine as a flat twin (it's actually a flat four). The earliest engines featured a horizontal cooling fan but this was soon changed to a vertical fan.
The car was originally designated the T107 but by the time the car was released in late 1947, the old nomenclature was abandoned and the car was renamed the T600 'Tatraplan.'
A photo of the Tatra range in early 1947. The new Tatraplan is in the centre, flanked by post-war T87s. A trickle of T87s continued to be built as custom requests for Communist part notables with surplus parts and engines right through into 1950.
Foreign currency was the priority for the Czech authorities and the Tatraplan was earmarked for export, with a smaller number allocated for Party and industry officials. The car was actively promoted in foreign markets, as far afield as Canada and Australia, but the rising tensions of the Cold War resulted in increasing export challenges. Critical markets, such as France, were officially closed, but exporters found their way around the blockade. Austria allowed individuals to import a car for personal use from Czechoslovakia, so Tatraplans were driven to the Austrian border where they were picked up by their new 'owner' and driven to Vienna, where they would be on-sold.
Nevertheless, the restrictions placed on Czech exports by the Western blockade had their desired effect. In 1951, the Czech Central Planning Committee transferred Tatra's car manufacturing to the Skoda works in order to allow Tatra to focus on trucks. This decision was unpopular with both Tatra and Skoda. Skoda manufactured the Tatraplan for only one more year, discontinuing production in 1952. Approximately 6300 Tatraplans were built, with more than two thirds being exported outside of Czechoslovakia. As a consequence, the Tatraplan does not have the same level of nostalgia attached to it in Czechoslovakia as the T57, T87 and later T603.
A video review of the Tatraplan from the website: 'Rides with Chuck.'
Tatra 603
Following the demise of its automobile line Tatra focused on heavy truck production. Tatra's independent suspension, multi-axle drive trucks were extremely popular for both military and heavy industrial purposes. They were even used as nuclear missile transporters. The Tatra design team however never abandoned the hope of returning to car production and continued to work on car designs in secret. The result was the Vatula, a car no less space age in 1954 than the T77 had been in 1934.
Within the Eastern Bloc countries, care was taken to ensure that critical export markets were protected. In 1952, the Central Planning Committee had factored that the cost of manufacturing the Tatraplan for domestic use was not economically viable once the export market had been closed. Any requirement for executive transport could be better filled by importing Russian Zil limousines or the Horch P240. This decision was soon to be regretted as the Russian Zil's proved to be disappointing; deliveries were sporadic and the cars poorly built. Nor could East German VEB Horch build anything more than a trickle of vehicles a year. Tatra management saw the opportunity and jumped on it, revealing the Vatula as a fully realised design. The Planning Committee were impressed and gave them the go ahead for the production of a streamlined luxury car for official use.
Full scale mock ups of the new T603 included Tatra's by now characteristic tail fin. The fin was abandoned shortly afterwards and never made it into the production car.
Released in 1955, the T603 was powered by a 2.5 litre V8 engine. The cars were all hand built and luxuriously fitted. Despite the contemporary advertising above, the cars were manufactured exclusively for use by party officials and foreign export. Some 20,000 T603s were built between 1955 and 1975 when the car was replaced by the boxy T613. Almost one third of the T603s were exported, primarily to other Eastern Bloc countries but there was a very small export market to the west, especially France and Germany. A small number also ended up in western hands when they were sold off by diplomatic and consular offices around the world at the end of their official life.
The T603 appears in three basic versions due to the recycling of cars through the factory at roughly ten year intervals for upgrades. This makes it very difficult for owners to trace their vehicle's history.
The original T603-1 is easily recognised by its closely set trio of headlights.
Between 1962 and 1968, all Tatra T603s in official service were recalled to the factory for an extensive service. The cars were significantly altered in what can only be described as a comprehensive rebuild. This included a complete restyling of the front end, replacing the trio of headlights with four closely set headlights. The engine may also have been replaced and all interior fittings upgraded.
In 1974 and 1975, surviving T603s in official service were recalled for their final renovation. After this change, the front end has a slightly more conventional look, with four widely set headlights. Cars that had left official service, were privately owned, exported, or 'lost' may have escaped these rebuilds, preserving their earlier features.
A contemporary advertising film showing the speed and robustness of the T603-1's handling. It's an amazing and interesting film. During the highway scene Tatra were clearly attempting to demonstrate that the problem of yaw at high speed had been addressed by putting car through a deliberate rear end sway. All the way through the film the car is roughly treated - even rolled down a hillside at the end! It's also noteworthy that the police car that gives chase in the second half of the film is a Tatraplan kombi van.
The end of the stream....line
By no account could the Tatra T613 ever be described as streamlined, although this car's handling can be said to the most conventional of all Tatras. The body was styled by the Italian design-house, Pininfarina, with whom Tatra had consulted several times in the 1960s and 70s. However, like most cars of the late 70s and 80s the T613 was boxy and uninspiring and as a consequence is not in the scope of this article. It was at this point that the name 'Tatra' began to reappear in the west, as all around the world, old consular T603s were put up for sale, having been replaced by the new T613. Those with an interest in the unusual design and styling of the Tatra were finally able to get their hands on one. A trickle of T87s and even a few T77s worked their way west - until Czech authorities realised their automotive heritage was being pillaged! All T77s in the Czech Republic are protected under moveable heritage laws and cannot be exported.
Tatra survived the fall of Communism, manufacturing cars and trucks until 1999 when Tatra decided to concentrate solely on trucks and retired their car line. They continue to manufacture trucks today which perform strongly in endurance events like the Paris to Dakar Rally.
Useful links -
Lord K's excellent blog- http://www.dieselpunks.org/profiles/blogs/lord-ks-garage-40-streamline
Tatraworld has an excellent T77 register listing the known survivors and their current condition - http://www.tatraworld.nl/
http://www.tatra-register.co.uk/
This is the place to go if you do have a Tatra T87 in need of restoration - http://www.ecorra.com/en/aktuality/.
Tatra's official site - http://www.tatratrucks.com/
Some of my pages -
http://heinkelscooter.blogspot.com.au/2014/08/tatra-videos-and-links.html
http://heinkelscooter.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/tatra-selection-of-historic-vehicles.html
http://heinkelscooter.blogspot.com.au/2014/09/tatra-70th-anniversary-commemorative.html
http://heinkelscooter.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/tatra-articles.html
http://heinkelscooter.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/tatra-streamliners-car-magazine.html
http://heinkelscooter.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/1934-tatra-t77-german-brochure.html
http://heinkelscooter.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/german-tatraplan-prospectus.html
http://heinkelscooter.blogspot.com.au/2014/05/french-tatraplan-brochure.html
Another great link - http://www.switchimage.org/phlog/Tatra_T77.html
ReplyDeleteLots more good stuff about Tatras. Have a look at www.theessenceofthecar.co.uk for models of T77, T600 Tatraplan and V570 prototype all to 1/43 scale
ReplyDeleteThe B&W photo showing the engine removal is of T77 not T87.
ReplyDelete